Posted by Ken Pimentel, 11 August 2011 8:00 pm
What is the #2 feature on Uservoice? Render Passes. What is the #1 interop feature requested on the Community Voice survey? Adobe After Effects. You got both plus much more in this latest subscription release from the wizards of Montreal and thereabouts.
Starting with Adobe After Effects and Photoshop interop, we've been working with Adobe for awhile to develop the very best interop between 3ds Max and After Effects. Their engineers and ours have been talking and it shows in this new feature. I think Steve Forde, the product manager for After Effects says it the best:
“The new interoperability workflow developed by Autodesk for 3ds Max and After Effects surprised and delighted us. It really is one of the best examples we’ve seen of an integrated workflow. The bi-directional nature of the solution will allow both After Effect as well as 3ds Max users to instantly update changes – in whichever product they occur in, significantly reducing the time and costs around project completion.”- Steve Forde, Senior Product Manager – Visual Effects, Adobe
I think we now have the best workflow with AE of any 3D application, but you be the judge. You can even set up the bidirectional link so that one person is working with Adobe After Effects on one workstation while another works on 3ds Max on a different machine. The update mechanism isn't limited to a single workstation (we're researching supporting OSX with this link). For now, we support both CS4 and CS5 with this mechanism. Based on our conversations with Adobe, we know there is more we want to do, but various limits of the products got in the way of taking it even further. The sharing mechanism is based on an XML file so this opens things up for using it to work with any compositing tool. Clever people will probably figure out how to do this before we do. Photoshop users weren't forgotten either as the render passes can now go direct to a layered PSD with all the right modes supported. Now, if we just had an OSX version of 3ds Max we'd be all set...
We're introducing something called "State Sets" to perform the work of render passes. State Sets are not limited to doing just render passes, it is simply a powerful way to use them. This is a very simple system allowing you to setup and control the state of 3ds Max and it works well for rendering and other things. We wanted something easy to use, extensible and powerful. We think this comes pretty close. For example, you can now create a set of render passes that take the output from ANY renderer that 3ds Max supports. So, you might use Quicksilver for one pass, mental ray for another, and vray for a third. All three renders can be set up to do what they do best for creating a single frame. That is flexibility that you won't necessarily find in other render pass systems on other products. State Sets is the result of our multi-year codevelopment project with Ephere (makers of Zookeeper). We're working with them on compositing application interop and this is the first result of our collaboration.
Here's a video created by the designer of the feature - it isn't the flashy marketing video, it was intended for beta users, but you might find it useful in addition to the marketing videos below:
Here's our marketing video:
We had hoped to ship this with 3ds Max 2012, but we chose to hold it back because it wasn't complete enough. This is our first effort to bring interactive and progressive rendering to 3ds Max. Think of this feature as a "snapshot" of where we're at right now, it also isn't intended to represent a final destination. For example, at SIGGRAPH Nividia will be showing the first public glimpse of Project Pandora which includes some research that we've been jointly working on to hook up to cloud rendering in 3ds Max. Project Pandora is a joint research project and not to be confused with any shipping feature of 3ds Max or the subscription drop. They are related, but you won't be getting cloud rendering at this point.
Now that our SDK is wrapped with Microsoft's .NET technology, it enables some interesting features like remote control from other computers and the use of really any scripting interface (like Python). People that build plug-ins on top of .NET will also find it is much less affected by compiler changes, so a plug-in can keep working with a new version of max - even if the compiler changed. Anyway, the more I talk about this one the more likely I'll say something stupid, so I'll let others fill you in on what the big deal is. It is a big deal according to people that write code for a living.
If you're wondering when you'll get access to this, it should be available on the subscription download center by the end of September.
The following is straight out of the F&B:
Segment your scene for downstream compositing more easily with an entirely new render pass system. A state recorder enables artists to capture, edit, and save the current state, while a visual interface shows how compositing and render elements are wired together to create the final result. Artists can quickly set up and execute multiple render passes from a single file; individual passes can be modified without the need to re-render the whole scene, enhancing productivity.
3ds Max artists whose creative toolsets include Adobe® After Effects® software can now enjoy a level of interoperability that sets a new standard for 2D/3D data exchange. With bidirectional support for the transfer of cameras, lights, null objects, plane objects/solids, footage (including footage layering), blend modes, opacity, and effects, artists can iterate more effectively and reduce rework to complete projects in less time.
Experience a truly iterative creative process for finalizing renderings, with new ActiveShade support for the iray® renderer from mental images®. ActiveShade enables artists to iterate more effectively by providing an interactive rendering session that constantly updates as changes are made to cameras, lighting, materials, and geometry. By shortening the feedback loop, artists can more efficiently fine-tune their scene, making it faster and easier to achieve their intended look.
Enjoy greater flexibility when finishing renderings in Adobe® Photoshop® software, with the new ability to output renderings in a layered PSD format that retains layer order, opacity, and blend modes (such as multiply or screen).
Effectively leverage .NET enabled languages (such as C#, F#, IronPython, IronRuby, and Visual Basic .NET) to extend and customize the features of 3ds Max, with new .NET exposure of almost all of the 3ds Max SDK. The .NET framework provides a number of features—such as garbage collection and reflection—that accelerate software development, while built-in libraries facilitate common tasks such as building user interfaces, connecting to databases, parsing XML and text, numerical computation, and communicating over networks.
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88 Comments
Nik Nastev
Posted 8 August 2011 11:36 am
sandykoufax
Posted 8 August 2011 11:42 am
Ken Pimentel
Posted 8 August 2011 11:48 am
Actinidia
Posted 8 August 2011 12:24 pm
Now, iray finally makes sense
Joel_H
Posted 8 August 2011 12:57 pm
On a separate note, I have to say that I am really impressed with the improvements that 3ds max has made in the past two years. It really is a "no-brainer" for me when that subscription bill comes in when I look back at the previous year's feature set. Keep up the good work!
marcatore
Posted 8 August 2011 1:11 pm
Anyway Ken..how is the near future??
Will I live or should I inform my family about my disappearing??
Khye Kading
Posted 8 August 2011 2:19 pm
Jonathan de Blok
Posted 8 August 2011 3:01 pm
Those AE/PS integration is priceless, massive improvement in my daily workflow!
iray active shade.. nice!
scene states.. looks very powerful!
Happy customer +1
Ice3D
Posted 8 August 2011 3:28 pm
The ae <> max interop is epic!
My only question is about what will be the future of the scene states because it seems like the new State Sets is doing the same job but in more advanced way. So, I think it isn´t good to see one more time the 3ds max with a tool (Scene state) that no one uses because a new tool which is far more powerfull was implemented. Just to keep things cleaned.
EDIT: I forgot about another question: Will State Sets be able to net render via backburner? Will we be able to render the scene state with the default render dialog?
I´m asking this because I din´t see any settings about it.
Thanks
Ken Pimentel
Posted 8 August 2011 3:48 pm
There are still a few things that are fewer clicks with Scene States than State Sets, but State Sets offer many more advantages and flexibility. We are eager to remove Scene States, but, we have learned our lesson about removing things before users have made the transition and we don't plan on doing that. It is definitely our goal to remove them, just don't know when.
re: BB
AFAIK State Sets are fully integrated and work with BB. I did not see any complaints otherwise on our beta.
dbowker3d
Posted 8 August 2011 3:54 pm
I noticed a little comment about Max and Mac OS: is this a little hint that it might be in the works? I don't, and won't be, using anything Apple for the foreseeable future, but I have a few professional friends who do, so future collaboration would be a nice possibility. Plus, getting some Mac-only schools on board with Max would be a great.
Ice3D
Posted 8 August 2011 4:28 pm
I understand your point. It's good to know that Autodesk is concerned about the unused tools.
I don´t know about how the things are decided there but don´t you think that State Sets could be an upgrade of the Scene States? This way you end up with only one powerfull tool.
My guess is because the two tools works different under the hood, and the way scene states works should be keep because the legacy, however it seems that the programmers would not have much work to make both run together.
Thanks again.
Ken Pimentel
Posted 8 August 2011 5:00 pm
We did let slip that our recent job postings are requiring OSX experience. That's all I'll say...
bill n
Posted 8 August 2011 5:03 pm
Oh - and please thoroughly test State Sets and release it bug free
Ice3D
Posted 8 August 2011 5:05 pm
3D Druid
Posted 8 August 2011 5:06 pm
timd1971
Posted 8 August 2011 5:23 pm
timd1971
Posted 8 August 2011 5:29 pm
(double posting bug?)
bill n
Posted 8 August 2011 5:40 pm
Something to think about - maybe a good time to move development of Max towards a language more cross-platform (and Microsoft proof)? Isn't that what you guys did with Maya and Qt?
Jonathan de Blok
Posted 8 August 2011 6:09 pm
That's a bug. I posted that message but I'm not Eric Lopez and I definitely don't use double accounts!
timd1971
Posted 8 August 2011 6:56 pm
Jonathan de Blok
Posted 8 August 2011 7:02 pm
dreamco
Posted 8 August 2011 8:09 pm
Zabander
Posted 8 August 2011 8:31 pm
Erik López
Posted 8 August 2011 9:03 pm
(double posting bug?)
silencer77
Posted 8 August 2011 9:28 pm
In our company we have been phasing out PC's in favor of macs. So the 3d guys (who also do compositing) use two workstations and switch between them via hardware switching. That said all of our AE works is done on macs and most AE users are using that platform. I am happy to see the direction 3ds max is taking. Two things on my wishlist though, OSX and stability.
Doughboy12
Posted 8 August 2011 9:30 pm
What part of..."our multi-year codevelopment project with Ephere (makers of Zookeeper)"...Didn't you understand?
visualz
Posted 8 August 2011 9:42 pm
>>http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/dl/item?siteID=123112&id=13578525&linkID=9241177
;^)
silencer77
Posted 8 August 2011 9:50 pm
dreamco
Posted 8 August 2011 10:49 pm
I fully understand. I didn't say i "taste Zookeeper", only i "smell" it. And since 3dsmax lacks a proper scene manager............maybe some day who knows??
Cheers (and calm down)
Guru3D
Posted 8 August 2011 11:01 pm
And Great that 3DSMAX is geared towards some ZooKeeper philosophy, it's the good way to go, nodal, flexible and robust (please?).
Scene State was clearly not usable at all.
I hope it will interface nicely with Vray too.... (related more on the render passes thingy)
AE link feature is convenient too, nice job (though i'm not convinced a bi-directionnal link would be a good workflow anyway)
Keep up !
SMaX
Swahn_Kung
Posted 9 August 2011 8:47 am
*Tools that actually work for 32bit floating colour workflow.
*True 3d meshes, FBX import and stuff.
visualz
Posted 9 August 2011 1:48 pm
Ken Pimentel
Posted 9 August 2011 2:59 pm
Did we mention that the interop is based on an XML file and that it was designed to be a generic method of interop with compositing tools? We just picked the most popular tool to start with. What's next? There are many ideas floating around.
Rawalanche
Posted 9 August 2011 3:00 pm
So... yeah...
THANKS for the great improvements. Render passes are surely a great addition, and activeshade iRay finally makes iRay what it was supposed to be in the first place.
I am sure Adobe integration will be welcome by a lot of people as well. Although for this, i am a little sceptic, because to this day, i still have not seen correctly working FBX file, so i use good old proven OBJ ;-)
Ken Pimentel
Posted 9 August 2011 3:24 pm
AE doesn't support 3D object import, so we instead pass a null object to AE with the transform. So, the interop doesn't have to deal with as much complexity if we were passing a 3D scene between us. FBX has come a long way, and if you haven't tried it in 2012 releases, then you might be surprised.
Rawalanche
Posted 9 August 2011 4:47 pm
Thanks for info. Sorry i did not make myself clear. I was not talking about FBX in relation to Adobe products integration, but in general. I tried FBX already many times with various settings, but i always ended up with objects improperly scattered around my scene, randomly rotated and scaled. It was case of export between Softimage and Max in 2011 product line
Swahn_Kung
Posted 9 August 2011 8:19 pm
However AE is a big piece in our pipeline, it was long before i started at work, so i'm stuck with the tools available to me.
However I DO appreciate the effort by Autodesk and Adobe to put this workflow together. If we get a solid solution it will definitely be a better alternative than unreliable half-supported plugins.
tadland
Posted 9 August 2011 8:36 pm
Clear and simple, bravo!
Just telling something to polish the craft:
Could be "also" great if :
1_We can dock the floating menu in AE, beside of the tools, up there, for example.
2_Render slate is a important thing, it should have his own icon, beside the layer one, for example, After all, it is a kind of "render layer".
3_Should be cool also if there is some render button inside the slate sets menu.
Can't wait the next improvements.
Now, i shut up....
Gryp Master
Posted 9 August 2011 10:27 pm
Cinemantica
Posted 10 August 2011 11:30 am
Ken: Give us a hint on if all of ZooKeeper will be implemented in a release or two, please.
Michael McCarthy
Posted 10 August 2011 3:40 pm
RE: Vray
Vray rendering is fully supported by State Sets and we are working closely with Chaos Group.
RE: Net render BB and Deadline
Yes, you can set up the Net render options and use BB. We are also working closely with the Thinkbox team for seamless Deadline support.
KiboOst
Posted 11 August 2011 6:19 am
Ken Pimentel
Posted 11 August 2011 1:46 pm
While it would be nice to have unlimited budgets to work on everything, we have to prioritize what we do. I'd rather have best in class workflow with one solution than minimal workflow with a lot of solutions. We've designed a general solution and we allways anticipated the need to support other solutions. I just can't discuss those plans on an open forum.
gaspedalo
Posted 12 August 2011 8:18 am
SuperCoon
Posted 13 August 2011 9:30 am
I think Active Shade is really cool by the way
@ Ken: It would be nice if I could access my subscription account so that I could download the advantage pack; I know this is not your responsibility, but I'm hoping you could help me. I filled out a subscription support request over two weeks ago (almost three) and I have yet to even hear from anyone at Autodesk regarding my login issue.
Michael McCarthy
Posted 17 August 2011 3:24 am
This is a good question. The "Base State" is your base 3ds max scene. All State Sets are applied on top of that. This allows the flexibility to change your scene without being locked at one point in time. I think a good way to think about this is like Adjustment Layers in Photoshop or After Effects. You have your Background Layer in Photshop (base 3ds max scene) and you can apply Adjustment Layers to it (a State). These Adjustment Layers modify the color or other aspect of the Background Layer like a State modifies your 3ds max scene. You still have the ability to change the composition or add things to your Background however and the Adjustment Layers will be applied ontop of that.
Hope that helps.
Thanks
Michael McCarthy
SuperCoon
Posted 17 August 2011 12:44 pm
Now if I could just get my subscription login to work so that I could down load it. It's going on four weeks and I still have not heard from Autodesk Subscription Support on my issue; I even turned the problem over to my reseller, and I have not heard from them in almost two weeks now - I guess they can't get a reply from AD either.
visualz
Posted 17 August 2011 12:55 pm
SuperCoon
Posted 17 August 2011 1:01 pm
Don Gray
Posted 17 August 2011 1:05 pm
You do know the Advantage Pack for 2012 not yet available right?
(end of September)
But, of course, not being able to connect to your subscription site is something that does need to be resolved.
visualz
Posted 17 August 2011 1:13 pm
SuperCoon
Posted 17 August 2011 1:13 pm
Anyway, I've not been able to log in for over two months now, so I do need to get my subscription login fixed for when it is available.
Thanks for the heads up.
Ken Pimentel
Posted 19 August 2011 12:16 pm
visualz
Posted 19 August 2011 12:28 pm
Don Gray
Posted 19 August 2011 12:37 pm
Ken Pimentel
Posted 19 August 2011 12:52 pm
Don Gray
Posted 19 August 2011 1:07 pm
ok
Know whether Cebas is working on updating Final Render for this?
visualz
Posted 19 August 2011 3:02 pm
PiXeL_MoNKeY
Posted 19 August 2011 9:07 pm
As Ken said that is up to the developer to handle. Imagination Technologies was showing Brazil 3 at Siggraph in 3ds Max 2012 with support for modeling and modified modifications in active shade workflow. The developers have been supporting that workflow for a few years now working under Caustic and now Imagination Technology, so it isn't anything new that allows that.
-Eric
Don Gray
Posted 20 August 2011 12:18 am
I've never gotten it to work here (Active Shade doesn't update when I move or change an object).
PiXeL_MoNKeY
Posted 21 August 2011 12:28 am
The renderer developer controls what updates the Active Shade window, and when. If they aren't tracking that information and telling their renderer to update you need to take that up with the developer.
-Eric
Don Gray
Posted 21 August 2011 12:48 am
So, Iray is something new coming only in the update?
What renderers have this function at this time?
Since the Active Shade came out this functionality has been there but not with standard Max rendering options?
I'm confused.
Don Gray
Posted 21 August 2011 2:25 pm
PiXeL_MoNKeY
Posted 22 August 2011 1:14 pm
I would base what is possible with Active Shade around the Vray RT or Brazil SDK stuff, and not around the scanline limitations. I have never used fR so can't comment about what it can and can't do.
-Eric
Don Gray
Posted 22 August 2011 2:43 pm
Just put a post on their forum pointing to this blog entry asking if fR is going to match the new capabilities of Iray in Active Shade in Max 2012.
Ken Pimentel
Posted 16 September 2011 7:09 am
Michael Powers
Posted 19 September 2011 8:08 am
Jonathan de Blok
Posted 19 September 2011 8:25 am
Ken Pimentel
Posted 19 September 2011 12:03 pm
Ken Pimentel
Posted 24 September 2011 9:14 am
LiquidContrast
Posted 27 September 2011 10:51 am
are there any plans on implementing some fluid system(plugin) into future versions of max?
is it possible to bring in a tool similar to XSIs ICE ?
thanks in advantage
Ken Pimentel
Posted 28 September 2011 4:20 am
We can't talk about future plans on a public forum. We're doing a range of research - some of which people saw at SIGGRAPH. We'd like to solve fluids in a way that makes it more than just a demo, but that is hard to solve.
re: vray and state sets
Perhaps you can more clearly communicate what isn't working. Vray is supposed to be fully supported. You should log a bug if it isn't.
Benleng
Posted 28 September 2011 5:44 am
AE Integration: I did a quick test of the AE-Integration, as this was very high on my wishlist. I tried it with a complex project I'm working on in the moment and just got a bundle of error messages. So I build a quick scene with a plane linked to a slowly rotating windturbine, rendered it out and linked it in AE. Sadly the rotation of the plane in AE in no way matches the rotation of the rendered windmill. Also the placement in 3d-space seems off. I had better results with a free script. I am actually rather disappointed of this very much anticipated upgrade. I have the faint hope, that these were just bugs and with some time I will get it to work properly, but I'm rather sceptic.
Jonathan de Blok
Posted 28 September 2011 5:50 am
Benleng
Posted 28 September 2011 5:57 am
Ken Pimentel
Posted 29 September 2011 11:10 am
While it may work for some people, it is not working for enough people, so we have to understand the issue and get it resolved.
re: AE link
We are transferring key frame data, so I'm surprised to hear that rotations aren't behaving as excpected. We'll have to take a look at what you're doing to understand what the issue might be.
Please report problems to: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=5600504&linkID=9241177
This is a top priority to address any perceived shortcomings. Enough users used this in beta that we know there isn't a fundamental problem, however the range of system configs isn't the same as the rest of world, so I expect some surprises as this hits the world.
Michael McCarthy
Posted 29 September 2011 12:56 pm
First I want to say thanks for great the feedback. Let me see if I can answer some of your questions:
We worked closely with Vlado to make sure all render options for Vray are tracked as well as Vray lights and other options. Special Vray object properties did not make it into this particular release but there are ways to get the same result (some have suggested the Wrapper Mtl). Switching to Vray renderer for a State is supported for sure (I just tested that out). More and even better integration is what we want and plan to deliver
I think it will help to know the approach that State Sets is taking. State Sets is not a brute force system that tracks every parameter as that would be very slow and hard to track. The goal of State Sets is to track 95% of things in a fast and easy way to set up render passes and other 3ds max workflows. The trick of course is when you might run into that 5% of things in your workflow that are not tracked and how to adjust for that. There are so many different users of 3ds max that use it in so many different ways. That said, we have made State Sets to adapt to these situations. One option is the scripted event in a State. This will allow you to set anything that is scriptable in 3ds max to turn on or off in a State. So if you have a special object property or Particle flow value adjusted you can get what you need.
Things like every color swatch or material parameter are not tracked. The idea is to set up your materials or RE's the way you want for different passes and then assign them via a State Set.
We have plenty more great ideas to come and are always looking for feedback on things that are essential to you.
There is always room for improvement and we are always looking to improve so please keep sending any ideas you may have! If you come across something that you feel is important to track or something that is crucial to your workflow please let us know.
If some of you are willing, we would really like your Vray or other expertise to help us in Beta. Please contact me via PM and let me know if your interested in making to tools better and working the way you want
Thanks so much
Michael McCarthy
BTW if you haven't yet please check out the training video on State Sets that is in the docs. I hope it will help many people get up and running right away:
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/limage?siteID=123112&imageID=17658339&id=17658314
CMOSS
Posted 29 September 2011 3:13 pm
Ken Pimentel
Posted 29 September 2011 5:11 pm
Benleng
Posted 30 September 2011 5:38 am
@Michael McCarthy Thanks for the information. That sounds like a reasonable approach. Although a comprehensive list of which features are tracked without scripting would be great.
Ken Pimentel
Posted 30 September 2011 6:41 am
I sent you a PM. We'll figure out what the issue is.
Michael McCarthy
Posted 30 September 2011 10:53 am
Thanks for the report. I will follow up to see what the issue is. Also there should be a list of all tracked features in the docs.
Thanks again
Michael McCarthy
Nicolau Pais
Posted 30 September 2011 11:29 am
- all vray properties were not recognized by state sets (only cheked on/off properties)
- vray framebuffer output paths also (only if save checked or not)
- settings on render elements also
another problems:
If you save the settings with VRay FB minimezed, on render time, will rum minimized... you can't see the render progress.
Render setup dialog window alway's close on change of state set's
Guru3D
Posted 30 September 2011 5:28 pm
Many architectural studios will need and use this feature for their renders passes:
- with Vray Frame Buffer (split render passes option, and ability to create folders for render passes)
- and also a render pass for moving objects (people ...) , which in general consists of Setting Object Vray Properties like : alpha contribution : -1 and matte: on .
This is crucial and has to work flawlessly.
SMaX
Benleng
Posted 17 October 2011 3:09 am
http://area.autodesk.com/blogs/maxstation/n61_state_sets_compositing_interop_requires_that_the_decimal_separator_is_a_period_subscription_advantage_pack
Now everything works fine.
Michael McCarthy
Posted 17 October 2011 5:24 am
http://www.mmccarthy.com/RegionIssue/RegionIssue.html
Thanks
Michael McCarthy
Ken Pimentel
Posted 26 October 2011 12:43 pm
We're committed to making this work. Thanks for working with us.
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