....only now you gotta find a tier for someone such as myself who would benefit from heavier compositing capabilities, while eliminating Lustre.
You mention Flare, but aren’t we talking about just covering the gap between Flame’s Batch and CFX? Maybe I have it wrong.
Personally, I’d like an editor with compositing on par with Fusion/Nuke. I think the $8-$10k would be in the competitive price range.
The tools exist, they just have to pilfer Flame to get them; probably not something that would be well received by Flame system owners. However, the price structure of Flame is a bridge they’re going to have to cross eventually.
Yes, it’s a case of filling the gap. Between the inclusion of all the tools and getting the workflow back to fast AND elegant this would cover the current smoke and flame user base at least from my point of view. It’d still not cover color and offline though.
As far as Flame System owners is concerned, I’ve seen this coming for years and would not buy another Flame (certainly not Premium) but would sooner expand Nuke seats since there’s more available talent as well. This pre-release version of Smoke and it’s suggested price in this user feedback stage is certainly making me rethink that.
The whole Post Production Industry, at least in Los Angeles, has seen a massive upset in recent years with a culling of facilities and migration of finishing work to editorial companies where client attendance has not evaporated as much, who tend to buy Smoke-on-Mac and hire (now freelance) Artists both for their ability and credibility. For AD to give their product a proper ‘leg up’ with their eyes seemingly set on the FCP and Avid crowd, which in this current climate makes sense, they really should take these comments made here very seriously.
I don’t know if anyone here has experience of the fusion for avid interchange system? That would be a way to solve this - flame and smoke should have a send to nuke function. Get Bruno on side and get the foundry to do a reverse to create a loop and everyone is happy.
Or even can the industry start to agree on a effects exchange format, virtually all compositors parse c style ASCII documents as their means of storing scripts, how about a smpte standard fxdl ? Sound unlikely? Probably. But it’s about time our boxes played well together, it’s ludicrous that a 1974 ASCII list of time odds is still around as the basis for 90% of edit data exchange. The color decision list is woeful and out compositing systems are all closed boxes.
Time for standards.
All's well that ends. That's why its called finishing.
The Avid / Fusion interchange is very nice. I was using the DPS Velocity / Fusion interchange a few years ago before Harris killed Velocity. Much to my chagrin. It looks like Fusion as taken the next step with Avid interchange. Though,, I’m not sure I’d want a similar interchange with Smoke. I mean, my reason for Buying Smoke would be so that I don’t need to gou out to another kit. Hell CFX is there, just beef it up. If it costs more, make it Smoke Premium or something.
I think for 90% CFX is everything anyone will ever need, hell its practically a Flame! Im thinking still in terms of wire removal using Furnace or 3d camera solves in Nuke.
The AD interface be in realised in IFF or smoke is awesome and fast btu its an online system, its really not for shots with hundreds of elements that will be worked for weeks on end. But it makes a great front end editing those layers together before sending to Nuke.
The last feature I did with Mark I ran Nuke on shots and Mark ran a Smoke as the assembly station. Both comp well but when it came to 3D shark shots with depth/motion/AO/RGB/shadow and more passes in EXR files it was time to crack out Nuke. theres a need for both kinds of comp station and I guess where I was headign with my FXEDL request was to have some transportability between systems. Roto in Nuke open in Smoke, comp in Smoke send to Nuke for more and so on. In the in house version of Nuke way back at Digital Domain Bill had it opening Flame Action setups so the translation is possible, I’ve personally written programs years ago that translated Fusion comps to Shake when we switched mid film so I know far brighter minds than mine could be sorting this stuff out. Heck even FCP had ‘send to Shake’ - I know it just should have been ‘send to shake with the same gamma’…
If the development costs for AD are to high, then instead AD should lower the price to $ 999.-,
put Smoke (absolutely ALL integrated) into the App Store as well as porting to Windows and Linux,
doing a fine marketing campaign, and sell one million licenses.
The history of disruptive innovations has shown, that ‘premium’ products are damned to go under.
Apple has understood. BMD does it with products they acquire.
Knowing the BMD people very well I can assure you its a lot more complicated than just slashing the price to 999 and going prosumer. davinci being a high profile example, after simplifying product lines and focussing on resolve rather than legacy systems they had a hugely efficient operation that allowed the new price point. But additionally there was a sense that there was no need for a grading system to cost 200k in this day and age… some say the same of online fx systems…
Also i don’t think anyone has seen davinci taking functionality away - rather the reverse and version 9 is going to amaze a lot of people.
All's well that ends. That's why its called finishing.
Sorry if I wasn’t clear at my point about ‘premium’.
I haven’t meant that BMD had taken functionality away of Resolve.
Resolve not considering as premium any more is a change in product communication
and absolutely the right thing.
I’m referring to ‘The Innovator’s Dilemma’ by Clayton M. Christensen and the way disruptive innovations
affect market-dominating companies with their ‘premium’ products. History shows no big company
delivering ‘premium’ products survived the appearance of disruptive innovation…
Apple, or better Steve Jobs as a fan of the Book, has understood this well and has continuously renewed the product line,
as if Apple – though also a ‘software giant’ or ‘monster company’ like AD (sorry AD ;-) – acted as if they were
a grass-roots movement. Disruptive innovation normally begins as a grass roots movement.
At the beginning the resulting products don’t fulfill the premium requirements of the market,
but fulfill enough to be usable for 80% of a qualified majority of users.
And these products are developed faster than the over-engineered premium products.
Exactly this we have seen with FCP-X !
Disruptive innovation doesn’t need to be done the hard Apple way,
but it also proves that there are strategies for big market-dominating companies to survive.
Since AD renews the Smoke technology anyway,
considering Smoke not being ‘premium’ is a matter of communication.
If you ask now what is the disruptive in Smoke:
We witness a paradigm shift away from democratized functionality but
distributed inconsequently and redundant over many different apps,
to all-in-one apps now providing a stringent workflow for all the already democratized functionalities.
Democratization is nothing you can reverse, so a Smoke not having 100% of AD’s functionality
for a democratized price point simply doesn’t make sense any more.
@v7000, I have to disagree saying the BMD comparison doesn’t hold up well. BMD sells what is becoming a nice and wide variety of affordable hadware, and a camera which has the potential to sell like hotcakes, I myself will most likely get one:)
Asode from the big Resolve hardware, their product line is not comparable to the old school Discreet hardware. Actually it can be argued that BMD line is the opposite of Discreet’s. There’s a reason it doesn’t exist anymore and also why Smoke is taking this route, and this reason is something BMD understands as well. I am a potential and very likely BMD customer, so are some of the creative I know. Now if Discreet where around today, me nor anyone I work with, would be a potential customer of theirs.
So, I was starting to get bummed out when people where mentioning a tiered product with $3500 being the intro into it.. What was being talked about would essentially price and alienate me and a Very large number of people out.
-all our startup money is spent, so purchases are now carefully weighed and I still need two new cameras! Cameras will always trump software in today’s age. Most(possibly all) of the people I know agree with this…
It seems to me that this is blindingly obvious.... companies large and small have failed by not recognizing and embracing this. Actually we are still witnessing revolutions which are overthrowing oppressive governments which failed to recognize the next step in the democratization of human society…
Apple, Adobe, and BMD understand the realities and are embracing them head on.. 3DS-Max seems to have lost it’s foothold in 3D elements creation in motion graphics as a result of Cinema 4D. Avid is, as far as I can see, Not used at all outside of post houses. I’ve personally never even seen an Avid… and I live and work with creatives in NYC.
FCP is still used by the vast majority, and FCPX is, despite what the old school heads say(sorry guys:) ), the fastest and most fluid editor out there..
After Effects is used everywhere… Smoke without the 3D tracker, particles and the “amazing looking” Atomize, is going to be overlooked and passed on by an inconceivable(to AD apparently) number of potential users. Sorry but 10,000 downloads of the 1st beta is not that much when put into context.. just sayin.
It actually boggles my mind that Action in Smoke still does not have this… Basic particles not made in 3D packages, are actually being used on movies and TV big and small. Basic dust, smoke(atmospheric type), ect are being used from Nuke and even Flame now.
More importantly, these are being used in After Effects and Flame on small/smaller budget productions with surprising to some(not me), seamless, photo-real results( just needs to be integrated into the scene smartly)…
Oh also, you simply cannot claim to be a true motion graphics capable package without particles. No way in the world! :)
Integrating particles(in some form or another) and making motion graphics more dynamic and engaging is absolutely essential to building a solid client list..
Personally, I am part of a small Creative Collective startup, and while I truly love working on my stuff in Smoke(I’ve actually created some video art fully[100%] in Smoke which I will be having two shows[gallery] on). So I Really, Truly think the software is amazing and “Perfect” for creatives and artist:)
Just look at what Marco Brambilla does in Flame, amazing: http://www.artandcommerce.com/
But it at times can feel really limiting without all the features/capabilities present in Flame. Yet these are not limitations imposed when using PP/AE and the amazing plugins. BUT, using Premiere and After Effects feels less less creative and more disjointed then working in Smoke. Plus there’s a “look” to Smoke that is more analog and natural with the end result, IMHO…
So at $3500 without the full features, Smoke is simply “over priced"… I love it, it’s awesome to use, but....
When full featured it will be the best thing out there, bar-non, especially with the long beta period:)
All credibility was lost with the line I never seen and avid, work and live with creatives, and fcpx is the fastest and most fluid editor out there. Get this guy a send to youtube button.