|
Tell us what you think of the site.
|
Autodesk Media & Entertainment User Community
|
Autodesk® 3ds Max®
|
|
Autodesk® Maya®
|
|
Autodesk® Softimage®
|
|
Autodesk® MotionBuilder®
|
|
Autodesk® Mudbox™
|
|
Autodesk® ImageModeler™
|
|
Autodesk® Sketchbook® Pro
|
|
Autodesk® Smoke on Mac®
|
|
Autodesk® Entertainment Creation Suite Ultimate®
|
| Smoke 2013 - Pre2 - Initial Thoughts
|
|
|
I literally breathed a sigh of relief when I saw the crosshair cursor on launch, that alone shows you are listening! Sadly I still prefer the solid crosshair from Flame/Smoke 2012, the new one is like most of 2013 a bit on the ‘fussy’ side.
Here’s my quick overview of the GUI changes.
Source - Sequence. I still find the main Source - Sequence display messy, not to mention a mouthful to say. This is a feature of Smoke 2013 throughout, everything has a too descriptive title rather than an easy to remember snappy name.
Thumbnail - means nothing. Thumbnail is misleading in the extreme, a thumbnail is an icon to which you can do nothing but look. What we have is a desktop for organization, prep and mental arrangement. Call it DESKTOP.
Player - yes, nice and accurate that one is good! Keep calling it PLAYER.
Source - Sequence. F. Next you will be calling the node graph a directed acyclic graph. That stuff flies with 3D people, but damn it Jim I’m an artist not an engineer. Call it EDITOR.
Triptych. Nice try, very artsy, but 90% of editors can’t even spell it. Call it 3-UP.
I know this all seems small and inconsequential, but if the nomenclature at the base level is unwieldy, it’s a massive barrier to entry. Nuke literally once called the node graph the DAG - they stopped pretty quickly once they started selling in volume.
Moving on, the navigation has been cleaned up on screen, the swipe bar labeling now agrees with the labeling in the left hand pop up and .. oh no wait it doesn’t? Still in the swipe bar it says ‘ESC’ “SHIFT- ESC’ whilst on the pop up we get a circle with an arrow in it. I had NO idea what that meant and I’ve been using a lot of computers for a lot of years. This is very clumsy and confusing, personally I would love to lose the pop up box given that we have the deep interface swipe element and keyboard shortcuts as the middle of the screen is just a mess. But if its staying get your on screen conventions to agree and avoid unfamiliar icons.
Next up lets look at the source and record viewers. The tabs at the top of screen are redundant and pointless, its not like you can switch there between 5 open sequences or sources, so why have them - you already show the name of the sequence or clip at the bottom right of the window. Its repeated redundant information that wastes literally 4% of the entire desktop.
Beneath each viewer we have a zoom control and a full screen toggle, seems a bit cluttered. It seems to me that zooming in and out can be achieved by using the numeric pad’s + and - keys and using the home key to fit to window with space bar drag to pan around as it is. Maybe allow control drag to resize manually. Yes have the zoom value displayed but its really not a massive feature so just add it to the top of the text listing what you are looking at. You can lose the zoom control too by just adding full frame play to the side swipe bar as well as the existing control escape keyboard shortcut. No need for that clutter on screen..
The display navigations are 100% better except a second press of any navigation function should toggle you back to where you came from, the only one exhibiting this behavior at present is CNTL-ESCAPE for the full screen player player.
I would suggest the keyboard shortcuts can be improved though;
ESCAPE for player is perfect
CNTRL - ESCAPE - for full screen is perfect, its a bigger player add an extra key makes sense
SHIFT - ESCAPE - for edit makes sense too
SPACE - ESCAPE - I would suggest should be Desktop (thumbnails - sigh) as its a space to do stuff in
CNTRL - SHIFT - ESCAPE for 3-up (triptych - sigh), makes sense as oh yeah its three things and I press three keys
Can we tie tools to spaces? For example when i go to the desktop (thumbnail) view that’s the only place i need a button to access tools, not a tab the whole time. Back to my pet topic of swipe gestures. Keep the tabs for those that want them but add a context aware swipe. If I am on the desktop, swipe down loads desktop tools, swipe again toggles to the timeline. That’s all I need.
Likewise swipe left past the Media Panel should show and hide it. CNTRL swipe should show and hide the media hub. Simple isn’t it, and just as easy to do with a mouse as a stylus, as well as faster and easier to navigate. Doing this will let you ditch the three tabs and give us back another 4% of screen height. But if people still want them, extend the tabs past the bottom of screen. At present they end 2-3 pixels from the edge, this means you can’t just fly down to the bottom and hit a tab you have to be painstakingly accurate. I keep banging on about edges of screens being deep interface elements and I mean it! If they were to extend past the edge (or have an active area 100% to the edge if you really must have an extra line at the bottom) then I can move a LOT faster to the absolute bottom than I can decelerating to stop 3 pixels from the edge of screen. Personally I think they are a huge mistake down there, screens are much wider than they are tall and clutter is clutter.
Flame and Smoke succeeded on the cleanliness of interface I think you are losing that in bevels, dotted interface elements and the many lines around things that make the screen look like a technical drawing. The only important thing on screen to an editor is the pictures being cut together - everything else is a necessary distraction. The function of good user interface design is to minimize the distraction. The current look is way too compartmentalized and simply looking at the old Smoke should make you realize that.
Case in point is the row of connect fx buttons and timeline effects. There’s literally half the screen unused by two rows of buttons. Consolidate them into a single row and give me more room for the timeline which in a 16x9 world is very compressed beneath big square windows by default. In fact now it occurs to me that what makes the whole thing feel somewhat old fashioned is the default squareness of the viewer port, set the default split to 50% viewer port and 50% timeline and you already look way better! Hiding the media panel makes everything feel much more useable too, hmm perhaps its time to think about putting the media panel and mediahub on a second screen?
Once we start to look at the idea of a second display the options become pretty exciting, hmm I could have my desktop there while I work in CFX, pop out and do some cleanup on an element and drop it in without breaking my workflow. I know its very none Autodesk but it is kind of how every other edit system is from Avid, FCP, even DS… just food for thought. Course that does break some of the left hand gestural options but as they don’t exist yet…
Back to the main screen. The placement of current timecode is odd and breaks concentration. The old placement of above the clip window just allows for a quick vertical deflection of eyeline, glancing down and left is a lot more intrusive. Let’s have current timecode lifted into the window and placed centre above the clip. In fact move all timecodes into the viewer window and give us back another 4% of screen height.
To illustrate all the above I’ve made a quick PSD - it’s amazing how much cleaner it can become whilst retaining all the functionality, even losing the three tabs at the bottom and the two at the top loses nothing, functionally you still have drop down menus for the point and click crowd and will have added gestural access for the pen guys…
No need for a highlight keyline on the selected viewer the bg of the none selected viewer and transport controls dim to 50% and the scroll bar goes monochrome, though the clip stays 100%.
Clicking in any timecode field toggles the numeric display to frames, clicking again toggles it back to timecode.
Clicking on the 100% viewer size indicator pulls up the view size options. Space bar drag allows you to move around the viewer, cntrl drag lets you zoom manually. Shift clicking on the zoom value toggles between the current zoom value and fit to fill.
I’ve moved the edit insert buttons between the source and record screens where they belong as well as the ‘wheel’ thingy. I’d prefer this whole block of icons to be a preference as the screen navigation is best achieved by the swipe bar and hot keys as are editorial and trim functions. Audio scrub etc I’d like to see as simple as scrub with caps lock on no scrub with caps lock off rather than a drop down menu choice.
Toggling between source and record I’d like to see implemented by pressing the tab key or by clicking anywhere on either of the two viewers. Similarly clicking on the tab above the timeline switches the focus in the viewer as well as the timeline.
I don’t much see the point of the little icons to the left of the CFX editor, it looks like superfluous eye candy to me - but I’ve left it there for now as I reserve judgement on its usefulness until I’ve played with the system for a while.
Comments?
All's well that ends. That's why its called finishing.
| Attachment
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
PLAYER.
Well how many ways can you break the simplest thing? First off The player really needs to have all the functionality of the old player too, loop etc the show overlays box is simply crazy, a drop down menu to add a grid? You really really have to re-examine the need for pop up boxes and drop down menus. They are the enemies of simplicity and speed. The positioning of the pop up also covers the very timeline I am trying to review. To be fair the overlays button of 2012 needed some work too - what we all really want are the Grid and View buttons from Action in the player. All the time. With fast on/off like in Action. And we need to be able to press and select these things while Smoke keeps playing.
Some global hot key to show/hide overlays is needed - id say CNTRL O but thats just me… whatever it is standardize. Even in the play viewer options there are SHIFT and CNTRL shortcuts defined but no shortcut for the detail you’ve now hidden. Pick ONE modifier and create a set of shortcuts that work globally.
A play menu that simply shifts the window from the right to the centre and offers up no more information is pretty pointless and yet that is what we get by default now.
The audio desk is fine but I think we need to be thinking more in terms of CFX for audio rather than trying to shoehorn all the audio tools into a player.
TRIPTYCH.
I’d like to see current location timecodes above each player and more direct navigation of each window, eg simple way to type in timecode and jump to that location. Other than that it is what it is, I personally barely use it but I’m sure someone does.
DESKTOP (thumbnail - sigh)
Yep awesome, same as it ever was. Lets fix that. It remains the only place in the entire system where space bar drag doesn’t move the image. Let me drag the desktop around things often end up a bit off screen and hard to get at lets fix it. Also repositioning leaves a still frame behind which makes it look like you are copying a clip when simply moving one. This needs to be fixed.
Global Comments
A small interface mistake is labeling any numeric input keypad as a ‘Calculator’ its a keypad not a calculator. Its new design is ugly as sin and has a pointless close icon. Clicking in the field that brought it up closes it so why make the top of the box so big. Can we go back to the older nicer looking keypad? It too suffers from the new design trend to draw a line around everything. It makes everything feel cheap and unfinished, not to mention the many breaks from interface guidelines you must have drawn up. The timeline FX pop up gets a drop shadow yet keypad does not and so on. We need to create a consistent world and preferably one without lines all over the place.
A far larger mistake is abandoning the colour schemes and interface guidelines of 2012. The value of a Smoke and Flame suite is burnt into clients brains, the very smooth, sleek professional interface we all love is too high a price to pay for batch. I think the redesign has created a very distracting environment with its reliance on thin lines that create a mess of detail that overwhelms where the old interface soothed. I hope this get looked at as it really is very very bad at the moment. Take a look at paint or text in the old and new systems and see how much less visually appealing the new version is.
Things that have no parallel in the new version include BLUE highlighting of options, which is understandable as damn near every button hides a drop down menu! Seriously though this kind of colour coding massively speeds up the process. Go back and look at how right you had it before reinventing the wheel. The accent lines are a disaster. The space wasted to bevels is appalling.
I’m being hard as usual but I think the AD team has done an enormous amount in a short time, I was prepared to be much more disappointed. I’m glad they’ve pushed back on delivery dates as there is still much to do. The hard part they’ve done well, the system works technically and has enormous power. However these things win and lose on the colour of a drop shadow. We are trying to appeal to people with very high levels of design sensitivity and I think the current layout is more technical than artistic. The original Flame design was as much a product of the SGI interface building tools as it was design choice but from that very simplistic, immediately obvious decisions were made. In this modern world of infinite choice and control I can see how easy it is to be distracted by possibilities. I think a step back and a re-evaluation of what works well in Smoke and Flame is needed. Its not an admission of failure its a recognition that in aiming high you often overshoot and need to pare back to essentials. Its what we do all the time in editing and effects and its what we need to do in edit system design.
I’m afraid thats all I have time for as my footage has now loaded so I better get working, I will do other menus over the next few days and then address the functionality in another email.
Author: Mikeparsons
|
| Replied: 20 July 2012 09:47 PM
|
|
|
|
|
Another perspective from more of a new-comer to Smoke…
Personally, I think Smoke 2012 was extremely difficult to get into / pick up. It wasn’t worth the time for us, given how powerful other tools have become. Of course, it’s a different thing if you already worked with Smoke/Flame for 5 years… understandable.
Now if Autodesk wants new customers and grow the market, it needs to be easy for us. The descriptive buttons really helped us, the tabs really helped, having the media right there on the left side helped (before we had to navigate into the library all the time and we never quite figured it out, we would have to define a network drive to just get onto our local disk). Even the little icons under the new timeline to create new tracks were very obvious to discover. We like the right-click pop-ups. We like the source vs. timeline view monitor. It makes sense/is easy and consistent with other software we are using.
Other packages are very easy to get into and have more and more powerful toolsets - AE even has 3D tracking - which Smoke doesn’t. We liked Smoke for its ability to do compositing directly inside the editor (we like Action, CFX node-based compositing). We miss some features that we get elsewhere (audio recorder, 3d tracker, particles, etc.)
E.g. we struggle with not having a “razor” button/tool. The timeline zoom (dragging vertically on a horizontal scrollbar) was very counter to other tools we have used, so had a tough time discovering how it works. Now once you are used to it, it makes sense. However, e.g. multi-touch gestures still do not work to zoom in the timeline with a touchpad (now of course if you are using a Wacom that doesn’t matter), but for the new market you are targeting it matters…
Now maybe, once you are used to it all, there could be some options to make things “swipe” away. I would imagine Autodesk will have to get a large amount of new customers to justify the new price point, and prob. grow beyond past revenue levels - so things need to be very “discoverable” for new users that are starting up the trial the first time.
It needs to be easy for new guys like us.
And I think Autodesk is really getting there.
PS just have a razor tool button to do cuts :-) (I’m sure you’ll hate me for this) and maybe the gesture-based zooming like you find other apps—or some zoom slider…
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I totally agree with the learning curve on Smoke. EVen as a long time Flame guy I really hated it and avoided it until I had to do a job in it. But after a couple of days it becomes second nature- once you stop exiting Action 50 times an hour.
I think the descriptions on buttons are fine but they need to be as tooltips rather than using a chunk of screen space. I agree witht the icons under the timeline and a lot of what they have done is very well implemented.
You hear no arguement from me on the source/record layout either other than its tremendously inefficient use of space. The hard stuff AD have done amazingly well and CFX will be a very popular way to work on hard things, now they have put the desktop back for prep even more so.
I’d like though to point you to your comment;
“The timeline zoom (dragging vertically on a horizontal scrollbar) was very counter to other tools we have used, so had a tough time discovering how it works. Now once you are used to it, it makes sense. “
This is the heart of what I am getting at, once you know something do you need all the coaching? Or would you prefer an easy first few weeks to an inconvenient amount of screen clutter for the next 5 years you use it? This is the difference between easy to use and easy to learn and I am insistent that the two can overlap so long as you have the ability to customise your user experience. Just as most software these days lets you have toolsets and show and hide things you dont use, the ability to modify your workspace is the only real way to pick up massive user acceptance.
See I hav no problem with you have a razor tool to make cuts, I use that all the time in FCP, but I’d also like an option to have a gesture such as dragging across the timeline track to achieve the same thing - even if it needs a modifier key to be held. I am not so conceited as to think I alone know what everyone needs, I know what I like and present my opinion in the hope that others do too and allow AD to draw conclusions. I have no problem with Smoke 2013 turning out to be something I dont want to use, I will just move along and find something else.
But focussing on the buttons was actually the smallest part of my rant. By far my biggest problem is how unpolished 2013 looks. I cant imaging having clients used to a sleek interface looking at the disorderly mess 2013 currently is. Look past the side by side display for a moment and tell me that you can simply and quickly see edit timecode data or glance at the timeline and as easily see what timeline fx have been applied as you could in the old Smoke.
It looks more user friendly but in reality a lot of info is repeated and huge amounts of space wasted. Not a problem while testing but wait until you have 8 tracks of audio and 4 tracks of video and cant see a damn thing because you have 8% of screen wasted by tabs at top and bottom and a hugely wasteful middle section.
Then take a look at how disorienting the pop ups are revealing options. In Smoke 2012 loading the grid view changes the tools on screen but keeps replay tools where they are. This change of the whole tools area keep the focus perfectly. In 2013 is a box that hides some of the tools making it less of a change of focus and so diluting the complete nature of the interface. Same with the numeric keypad - does it need a title, does it need a close box? This mentality of opening and closing adds a barrier to the modal model of do x go to y becoming instead do x close x go to y it adds an additional barrier event which gets in the way of speed.
I agree with you though its a great step from pre 1, hopefully they get enough solid feedback to make a similar leap to pre 3 but I tell you - the white lines have got to go.
Author: Mikeparsons
|
| Replied: 21 July 2012 05:53 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Agree. Maybe having the ability to modify the UI is the way to go.
It seems like there’s already some things going that direction - now you can easily hide e.g. the media library, the menu bar (I read that somewhere - haven’t figured it out yet it)
I agree once you learned how e.g. the scrollbars work in Smoke, it’s great - you can scale and scroll pretty much simultaneously. But we had to engage with Autodesk, ask the question, watch a bunch of videos and then we figured it out. My 3-year old nephew figures out how to use an iPhone without any manual. I’ve a top computer science degree and we couldn’t figure out how to zoom in Smoke (after using Adobe, and some Avid in the past). :-)
I’m just worried that people that just download the trial and evaluate it, will throw it into a corner since they cannot figure it out - coming from other packages. They won’t engage with an Autodesk sales rep to walk through it all, but might make their decision rather quickly. And I would guess AD needs really high conversion from trial to purchase at the new price point (so we keep getting great tools in the future from them :-). A big number of new customers… Otherwise, I’m worried that the software might not be around anymore some time soon in the future…
Another idea: Maybe there could a be a beginner mode where things are a bit more discoverable and then if you don’t need it anymore, you can hide some of the buttons. Use the hotkeys instead etc.
As background:
We never used Smoke 2012 (we trial-ed it briefly but couldn’t figure it out quick enough, so we stuck with Adobe for now… :-)
Another example: we don’t have interactive client sessions (we do corporate videos/ads). So while for many users/customers (esp. existing ones), the interactive session experience is prob. really important - sleek/clean look. We (and maybe many new potential customers) more care to get the work done quickly without having to spent too much time learning the software. We also prob. differ in that we have multi-purpose machines (mostly laptops). We wouldn’t spend all our time with Smoke (vs. maybe what it used to be in the past - maximal utilization to ensure good ROI on the big expense).
At the same time, we really would like to upgrade our VFX/looks from what we can do in the same time with Adobe. We might never spent enough time with Smoke to learn all the hot-keys there are, but it’s now in a price league where it might really make sense over other packages (if it’s stable, has some add. features we are missing, etc.). And we have the money to pay for it and do our small part to fund the future R&D :)
Hope this helps. Great discussions!
Author: alias3
|
| Replied: 22 July 2012 03:39 PM
|
|
|
|
I still prefer the solid crosshair from Flame/Smoke 2012
It would be nice if we could choose; Old Crosshair, New Crosshair, Mouse Pointer. Like key commands, let people use what they are accustomed to.
Thumbnail...Call it DESKTOP.
Player...Keep calling it PLAYER.
Source - Sequence...Call it EDITOR.
Triptych...Call it 3-UP.
Agree. Concise labels are a part of good design.
The tabs at the top of screen are redundant and pointless, its not like you can switch there between 5 open sequences or sources, so why have them… literally 4% of the entire desktop.
Agree, there is wasted space that seems to be a product of new thinking, mingling with legacy design concepts.
ESCAPE for player is perfect
CNTRL - ESCAPE - for full screen is perfect, its a bigger player add an extra key makes sense
SHIFT - ESCAPE - for edit makes sense too
SPACE - ESCAPE - I would suggest should be Desktop (thumbnails - sigh) as its a space to do stuff in
CNTRL - SHIFT - ESCAPE for 3-up (triptych - sigh), makes sense as oh yeah its three things
Agree, but key-commands need to be like labels; short and concise. Shift-Escape = 2-Up Edit. Control-Shift-Escape = 3-Up Edit. Hmm, ok. But this has to be kept in check. If you really need a three-key command, there better be a great reason, and it needs to be a logical progression of another heavily-used key command.
Likewise swipe left past the Media Panel should show and hide it. CNTRL swipe should show and hide the media hub. Simple isn’t it, and just as easy to do with a mouse as a stylus, as well as faster and easier to navigate.
Swipes are a classic feature of Flame and Smoke which optimized them for tablets, but as much as I love my Wacom, I do not like swipes. It’s hard to move quickly when you have to constantly be mindful about unintentionally popping out panels. And I’d argue that it creates a conflict when you have one action (move cursor) turn into another action (open panel) without another concise action to specify it (i.e., click button). Combining command keys with swipes could help, but is there a simpler way?
Maybe a compromise.... like swipe to corner? To me, this would fix a lot of things:
It would avoid accidental swipe inputs, by adding one more layer of precision (corner), while still being fast and requiring no memorization.
It also gives you four zones of options, not just two with left and right.
And, it’s in common use in many other areas of software design, and wouldn’t be a foreign idea to new users.
Flame and Smoke succeeded on the cleanliness of interface I think you are losing that in bevels, dotted interface elements and the many lines around things that make the screen look like a technical drawing.
This could to be another line of demarcation between legacy users and new ones. To users who haven’t used Flame for years, it’s interface is a daunting, monolithic mass. Lustre, as well. Smoke was like this before the interface re-design. I heard Autodesk polled many users about the interface, and got a lot of input about how an appealing UI should be built. They need that appeal for Smoke to succeed. In a way its already been proven; Smoke on Mac prior to 2013, looks like Flame, and even after “thousands of trial downloads”, few people bought it.
Albert Einstein said, “As simple as possible, but no simpler.” If you only had a few buttons, Flame-style aesthetics could be acceptable. But, as you add more and more buttons, it becomes difficult to navigate and causes users to bounce off, and look to other applications. The way you prevent this, is with logic and design that allows users to discover how things work on their own.
The ability to discover functionality is empowering and rewarding, and creates long-term users. And it begins with the grouping and differentiating of buttons using design cues that people can visually navigate. If you force people to do a lot of hunting, which Smoke still has a problem with now, you will lose users.
At this point, though, I think the 2013 re-design has put Smoke closer than it’s ever been to handling the large array of options it needs to include, while still remaining accessible. To head back toward older Flame or Smoke concepts, would only satisfy some veteran users, while forsaking a multitude of new ones.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Interesting perspective - not liking swipes I find odd… Corners are a bad idea generally for tablets, great for mice but harder for tablets. Swipe up or down is a wrist rotation, swipes are a natural side to side elbow rotation, corners demands both which is harder and slower.
I think a lot of what we are all saying is the same… by all means have the ability to load toolsets of icons (like the Avid choice of two rows of buttons and buttons over the timeline) BUT also allow us to switch them off and have gestural and keyboard alternatives. The compromise is not to make either way of working worse it is to let you switch them on and off. If you dont use the swipes turn them off, if you dont like rows of buttons, turn them off. This level of customisation is the only way to appeal to both camps. Hell even Microsoft office lets you define your toolbars!
I am a little different to many ‘veteran’ flame users in that I have always edited as well using Avid mostly then FCP. I would never dream of cutting a commercial with clients in Smoke its interface and general lack of media logging and sorting made it a bad fit for the task of offline (sorry Brian). Fine for cutting promos from existing masters where the content is well defined but for 40 rolls of rushes forget it. The new interface is starting to head the right direction, but the tiny media panel with just names is not a substitute for a full page of info where you’ve marked up slate data, graded your takes and so on. Theres a reason the offline systems have extensive bin listings and multiple views on a seperate screen, toggling the media area to full screen is quite a difficult way to select and use media.
The reality is Autodesk need to convince a much wider user base to use Smoke and I get that and want them to succeed. My dislike of the new interface isn’t built so much on a desperate need to cling to the past as a desire to keep the application looking professional rather than consumer ugly. We are on a fast track to long names and overly descriptive buttons which is unneccesary, thats what tooltips are for…
Take the time to look at the other ‘pro’ offerings out there;
Avid Symphony
FCP and FCPX
Premiere CS6
then look at SMoke 2013 again with its white lines around everything and traffic light coloured icons that don’t evem utuilise screen space efficiently then tell me again how well its going.
I’m not taking thr time to write this stuff to kick AD, I know how hard they are working on this, but if we all pretend everything is ‘getting there’ and then buy other systems because ‘yeah well I didn’t really like it’ then we are doing them no favours. Better to be as vocal as needed now while it can still make a difference.
As for keyboard shortcuts, they were insane in Smoke, always were - half of them didnt agree with Flame and so on. Its meaningless to speak of an FCP keyset in my opinion as so few functions overlap, what is really needed is a smoke 2013 keyset that takes the obvious FCP/Avid key functions and keeps the Flame keyset for the advanced functions that are new to offline people. That way as many people as possible will be happy.
Thanks for the comments, its only by discussing this stuff now that the system will come good.
best regards
Mike
Author: Mikeparsons
|
| Replied: 21 July 2012 05:35 PM
|
|
|
|
|
Just had a very long conversation with several of the top Avid offline editors in town. These are all very well established editors some ex Lightworks on their journey from film to today. Main quote I expect to have to put some time in to learn a system so I hate too much on screen prompting. None of them use ‘Avid’ keyboards as they all have their own keyboard configs. General opinion of Smoke 2013 was quite cool, they didn’t like the bright colours on the edit buttons and immediately asked if they can hide them. Other comments were can I see more than one source timecode, can I see it in frames easily, none liked the placement of the current position timecode - one suggestion was can we get the timecodes on the broadcast out. (Maybe add it as a toggle function). Perhaps the solution to multiple timecodes is to have master code and whatever channel is active in the timeline as a secondary code, I dont think showing more than two is helpful really.
I guess it all comes down to having an easier shortcut editor. The Avid style drag and drop setup was their suggestion which is of course very similar to the Premiere keyboard editor now. An onscreen keyboard that you drag functions on from a toolbox avoids and conflicts between existing shortcuts…
I also know a few FCP guys and at least one cutting TVCs in FCPX I will be seeing them at the pub this afternoon and will try to get them to either come to the office or download the demo.
What I do know is in the TVC world here the top guys are still Avid for jobs mostly shot on Alexa or film, and FCP7 is still the most used especially on the cheaper Red stuff. I’ll let you know what they come back with…
All's well that ends. That's why its called finishing.
|
|
|
|
Hey Guys,
As an editor of seven years and vfx compositor of six, I think you are both right. I struggled for a long time to learn smoke and finally mastered it, but it was painful. I think what Autodesk is doing is great and I agree with Mike that the UI is still a mess. I’m a fan of ‘less is more’. I would much prefer a cleaner UI without drop shadows an the like. However this would make the software very difficult to learn. The idea that we could turn off panels is a good one. Maya and Toxik (Composite) have good ideas in customisable UI eg 1 click layouts
I think Autodesk is aware about the design issues, but at this stage they are concentrating on getting the system stable, fast and with all the features working.
Great post Mike. It’s these sort of things that get overlooked as I had already started to get used to the current design. As I read your post and looked at the old smoke and other UI’s (scratch, nuke, FCPX etc). I realised you were absolutely right. Keep the posts coming.
MacBook Pro Retina
2.7GHz Intel Core i7
16GB RAM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Thanks for the input. Look it’s not the worst edit interface, it’s actually pretty good compared to many - but from many years of doing this I’ve learnt that you have to be vocal to make a difference. None of us know where this is going and all any of us have to offer is personal opinion.
I have strong opinions so I state them loudly, doesn’t make me any more right than anyone else but I do come from a place of experience and perspective so my opinions are generally founded in logical reasoning.
I think this second version is useable on real jobs, i won’t but I could - it is that close. The final trims of aesthetic pleasantries and coherence of design intention turn it from useable to pleasurable to use - and as I do this way more hours than I should I want it to be fun.
I don’t expect everything I ask for, there’s way too many other opinions to consider but we got the desktop back so we know change is possible. Now I just want the appropriate menu boxes blue again, even if they keep the arrows, the lines to go away and more consideration of gestural speed… Well that’s all before I make my next list!
Author: Mikeparsons
|
| Replied: 21 July 2012 10:44 PM
|
|
|
|
|
I used Smoke on many jobs (up to 45min.) as an editor AND finishing tool. I know that editing in Smoke 2012 and beyond is nothing for the faint hearted but if you were really into it it can be pretty fast.
2013 is much, much better in editing. The only thing I actually miss badly is f-drag from the source to the TL. I’m sure they’ll bring that back, has been a vital part of editing with 2012. The only thing that I would change is that F-drag becomes drag’n drop without the necessity to copy the clip by pressing F (or the pen’s front tip thingy) but coping the clip automatically.
In the past it has been a hard time, actually impossible, to sell Smoke as an editor to my staff. They all refused to learn it. Now with 2013 I will try
this again. I can even imagine that Smoke will be sellable for classes I give every here and then at university. In the past Smoke was too complex fort film students, at least if VFX was not their primary focus (and even then they like to focus more on Nuke et al and edit in FCP7).
I will have a couple of jobs in the next months which are around 5 min length and one that is going to be 45min. With Prerelease2 I can see it to give the new build more than a short test drive. Anyone an idea how to archive a project in 2013?
Hans
|
|
|
Jason Myres 21 July 2012 08:47 AM
Swipes are a classic feature of Flame and Smoke which are optimized them for tablets, but as much as I love my Wacom, I do not like swipes. It’s hard to move quickly when you have to constantly be mindful about unintentionally popping out panels.
Besides many other virtues such as readable buttons, swiping is a core invention Discreet back in the days developed for fast, pen driven work. My personal experience is that even editing can be done quickly with the tablet and pen. IMO, swiping and an interface that loves big Wacom boards is an vital distinction to the competition. Even with the heavy price drop Smoke is not going to be a mass-product such as PP or FCP-X. It’s direct competitor is Avid. Keep it different. And let the people experience the healthy world (no tennis arm anymore) of pen driven work. In the recommended specs list AD should ad the Herman Miller Aeron chair as an important item as well. And no, I’m not kidding.
Hans
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Swiping actually made its debut in the quantel paintbox and then later Harry which Gary back in the day quite openly admitted was his inspiration for flash/flame. Gestural editing first saw the light of day in quantel Henry in 1992 and was introduced to flame in 1993 or 1994 with version 5.
Author: Mikeparsons
|
| Replied: 22 July 2012 03:49 AM
|
|
|
|
alias3 21 July 2012 08:36 AM
PS just have a razor tool button to do cuts :-) (I’m sure you’ll hate me for this) and maybe the gesture-based zooming like you find other apps—or some zoom slider…
The Cut feature (cut via indicator and shortcut) is very quick and precise. Much preciser than the razor tool as I know it from FCP and PP. If you turn on Snap for certain taks, like editing sound or video clips on upper/lower levels, becomes as quick AND precise as possible. IMO, better than else where.
Zooming is very easy and works gesturally. Just hit the second bar underneath the TL and drag the pen up or down. Smoke is made for the pen.
Hans
|
|
|
|
Im just curious as to why the sudden disdain for Wacom drivers… The control swipe to hide the media bin has gone where in the last version the pen was still being fully embraced…
From Grant
Hi All,
Just so that you don’t miss these points....
To pan without switching to the pan mode, hold CONTROL+COMMAND and drag the cursor on the viewer and it will pan without switching selection modes
To zoom without switching to the pan mode, hold OPTION+COMMAND and drag the cursor on the viewer and it will zoom without switching selection modes
Regards
Grant
All's well that ends. That's why its called finishing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
"… and we don’t use a pen… we use a touch pad…”
Cool.
Can you send me some samples of your hair and beauty retouching from that touch pad :)
Personally I use VNC from my ipad so I can lie down while I edit, its a little slower but worth it for the comfort of lying down…
I can see a touch pad working but then why all the requests for right click functionality? Surely more direct manipulation would work better?
I’m glad this thread is working as I hoped and getting some diversity of opinions, all it does for me though is underline the need for a customisable workspace.
Author: Mikeparsons
|
| Replied: 22 July 2012 04:50 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
no beauty hair here ;-)
not a fan of right clicks. but just press control and its a right click. standard…
we often times use other software on the road, so we don’t employ Wacoms etc.
Author: alias3
|
| Replied: 24 July 2012 12:11 PM
|
|
|
|
|
People, some of these posts are so well written and worth expanding on that I’d like to see them changed to a ‘Sticky’ rather than get lost in the timeline and easily overlooked. Can we have that happen ? Votes anyone ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hear hear
Author: Andy T
|
| Replied: 23 July 2012 11:03 AM
|
|
|
|
|
I know I’m a bit late to the party, but Mike is so right about the blue boxes. I have been training newbies the smoke / flame interface for years and when I show them different color buttons mean different things, they start to pay attention and think that someone did a neat design job there. Let’s not lose the good stuff !
http://www.postmanvfx.com
|
|
|
|
