robert_le - 22 May 2008 10:52 AM

…
better we get service packs and bug fixes then new versions… It was cool once we had these .5 version. It was always cool as you got a new plugin and bugfixes without reinstalling the whole software..

Totally agree Point releases are great. If something gets broken in .2 you can always fix it and send it out in .3, nothing wrong with that. That used to be the model years ago and seems that most large developers are pulling away from that model so they can say hey we added these few new features but LOOK AT ALL THE BUGS we fixed to make the upgrade appear to be a more worthwhile investment. It seems the only time one is given out now is when a bug is so bad that 45% of the user base is affected by it.

In the past bugs were fixed as point releases, now its with full versions, sad :( ? Poor marketing/mentality IMHO.

robert_le - 21 May 2008 07:03 PM

Well nobody forces you to use the tool.

That’s right, but come on now, if you have to pay more than 4200€ for the package, you’d like to stick with it a while, no? Even more true for subscription owners.
On the Autodesk site max is listed with 3495$. That would be 2225€ (http://www.xe.com) if you could buy it in the states, but no, you have to pay almost double the price here in Europe. Are they out of their minds?
Then there’s fact that they have obviously lost their grip on max’ code. It must be such a mess in the meantime. I can imagine them breaking out in cold sweat when someone mentions touching max’ foundations. It’s not going to happen any more.

I for my part am not investing into max any more but XSI. There might be other good apps, but it simply looks most appealing and logic to me. There still are things I miss, but for most of them there’s a workaround by now, and they still keep coming up with fundamental innovations (like ICE), so one can expect a bright future. It’s around for 10 years already, and still they are overhauling the core big time! How brilliant is that?
It took me some time as an old max user to familiarize myself with the workflow, but I’m getting the hang of it. I often shook my head seeing how elegant and simple things can be compared to max (or maya, by the way). Almost all the things I hate about max are done better. No details, go see for yourself. There will be bugs and problems, too, no doubt, but I have more trust in them when it comes to cleaning up than in Autodesk.
People mentioned constructive criticism: sure, but if nothing moves, you eventually get frustrated, and if there are better (and cheaper) options than driving that old cuban 50s car that shortly will be beyond fixing, what will you do?
Thanks, and bye bye!

I think any long time power user of Max has had these moments. Max is getting old, but the reason is seems to be gaining steam in my eyes and in numbers is the fact they are trying hard to improve it and it works well with VRAY and Autocad. If you are doing games and don’t have any legacy assets then switching might make sense, but the one thing I like about Max is it able to do most of what we need it too do with out plug-ins other than VRAY. And it has always been a fast tool for small and medium houses. Pick your poison I guess
I have been known to throw a Max CD at the walls in frustration before.... Max 8 back Burner crap........shudder....if I ever meet the idiot who released that version of back burner he or she would get a an earful…

and the fact that its the most widely used 3d animation softeware in the world (not my opinion - thats a statistic).

//gD

i got to be honest, this is a ridiculious thread.

1.most of the bugs or errors i see happen are due to users fault and the way they do things.
2. hardware configurations. you can’t expect a piece of software to work perfectly when there is an infinite combination of hardware configurations and drivers
3. OS- if your OS haven’t been reinstalled for a long time its gona effect the way software performs, and the way your OS performs is also affected by the hardware configuration and drivers used, latest or not.
4. 3rd party plugins greatly effect your softwares performance and stability

the list goes on. i love max, the tattoo i’m designing for myself at the moment has a max logo in into it

This is my 3d software. There are many like it but this one is mine. My 3d software is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without me, my 3d software is useless. Without my 3d software I am useless. I must model my 3d scene true. I must model straighter than my enemy, who is trying to outbid me. I must out model him before he out models me. I will. Before God I swear this creed: my 3d software and myself are defenders of my studio, we are the masters of our enemy, we are the saviors of my life. So be it, until there is no enemy, but peace. Amen.

You need to get out more and enjoy “real” Life.

i think your taking it a bit too seriously, i don’t even believe in God. it was meant to be funny. and i enjoy plenty of real life.

it was [censored] take out of Full metal jacket

I’ve read Shawn’s link on the NASA-article, it did open my eyes somewhat.

Undoubtly, there are a ton of programmers here, just like my father, who work on programming software on a daily bases. Now, autodesk is a company that supplies a vast variety of products, from motion animation to modelling to rendering to rigging to compositing to ...

all these autodesk products are combined with pipelining - and try to supply CG the 100% needs that they want.

next to this pipelining, we have 3rd applications plugging (or trying) to plug in to these products.

Doesn’t it seem rather offensive of us, the customers to just bash in on probably the main-line product of autodesk? just like that?

Cause, thinking of which, these last years, technology is changing vastly from a single core 800Mhz intel pentium 1 to a home-self-made computer having a dual-quad-core, or people stuffing together a render farm.

From ms_dos to windows millenium to xp to vista to ...

all this is happening in a shortspan of a decade or two. Try not to forget that software is supposed to be able to follow these changes like a baby hangs to it’s mother.

Please, please, and again: please: just stand still for a second and think about it: these tremendous hardware changes and the people wanting more and more and more and bashing in on a company. in this case, a CG company, probably the most used one, and as we all know by now, CG are on a SPECTACULAR rising in famelane. Everyone wants CG, architects, modellers, game-devellopers, vizualisation companies, the movie industries

EACH branch wanting to use this CG is also being pressured by their supperiors, which causes them to pressure autodesk since they are the source !

The source is autodesk, and i’m happy they realise it, cause if autodesk decides to stop develloping or making new version, CG is dead.

Earlies the thread-started stated 3DSM was a rotting dead corpse? No.. it’s not… it would be if they stoped develloping. Stating a software should be comming out without bugs: a nice dream, but not doable, since this world is on the verge of technological breakthroughs, and media / software is long but finished in growing. And so autodesk keeps following to not fall behind on the world. If ever the world stands still in technology, perhaps there is enough time to work out bugs.

Isn’t it even normal that a company has to devide it’s recources for example like 25% bugs 50% devellopment 30% marketing 20% .... other

It feels like everyone is expecting 100% bug controll - this is a non-realistic manner of thinking, it will never happen, not in this world.

And no other product can do this, I would get VERY concerned if my product stoped working on a new release and started working to much on it’s current version. This would mean other products would be getting new features that yours wouldn’t have, which means you’re falling behind and from that point on, you’re a rotting corpse cause customers will be wanting those new features.

So yes, I’m saying it loud and proud, autodesk’s management is a typical-strong-marketing-product, and they’re doing just fine.

*"the unstability of a product is equal to the ratio our virtual-world is growing*” - but, companies offering the same, and being compared in stabilty - only shows the internal workpower of the coding-team.

And don’t forget: Autodesk provides a monster-load of products, comparing for example ZBrush with 3DSM is stupid, ZBrush does not have all the products Autodesk has.

*** my 2 cents***

Remdul - 07 May 2008 11:57 AM

Thank you. To be honest, this was my goal in starting this thread—getting some confirmation (for myself) about Autodesk’s stance on this issue. I think it is pointless (for me) further to discuss this any further after this ‘revelation’, I don’t want to waste anyone’s time, so I will make one last statement:

You acknowledge that:
1) 3dsmax MUST have lots of bugs ‘by design’
2) yet Autodesk takes a highly skeptical position when a user reports a bug
3) it is acceptable to shrug it off as ‘user error’, driver bugs, or plugins

My findings:

1) Any sane programmer will acknowledge that bugs due to ‘complexity’, ‘design’ or deadlines are unacceptable. Virtually all software developers do not release their software without meeting some sort of ‘reasonable’ quality standard, most in fact do not release their software AT ALL until it does.

2) Bugs happen in EVERY software, when a vendor acknowledges their product has serious problems in this regard (which Autodesk seems to, by your account) I would expect the vendor to take bug reports rather seriously. This does not seem to be the case here.

3) I find this insulting to the user, the customer, the community. Apparently many users accept this.

Take note: I mean ‘legitimate’ bugs here (we all know about user’s misinterpretations/meanings of the word ‘bug’ and various external factors (e.g. hardware, data corruption) that can affect software performance.

To all: sorry for sounding like a jerk. Take care and good luck.

Two things that drive me up a wall: waste and stupidity.

I don´t agree with everything that the topic autor said, but one thing resumes everything:

“3ds max should be rewriten from scratch.”

It´s a fact that 3ds max is an old, arcaid and ugly software that unbeliably still let us do amazing things.

I would surely be one of the first users to congratulate autodesk for an all new and fresh 3d software, that works similarly as 3ds max, but stable, logical, and with An all new GUI, something impossible in 3ds max.